|
|
Post by southampton on Sept 18, 2012 16:36:38 GMT -1
is there any reason to keep people like Dale Cregan alive? he is wanted for two murders and has just added to that the murder of two police women in cold blood, he will not be seeing life outside prison again, he will get life and this will be a case when life will mean life not ten years, but I cannot understand the people who have been helping him over the last month or so when his face was first shown in the media, would you help feed and hide a guy like him knowning he was wanted for two murders?, the sad thing is in time there will be people in the same mode as lord longford who will say in a few years time the same as he did re Myra Hindley "cregan is a changed man and deserves to be let free" and there will be those sad people who will write to him because " he didnt mean to do it" etc etc.
|
|
|
|
Post by cicero on Sept 18, 2012 18:21:19 GMT -1
The two people Cregan killed in Droylsden were criminals like himself, the family had been involved in criminal activities in Higher Openshaw and Droylsden for quite sometime, so he did everyone a favour be eliminating them. But why he shot two police women in cold blood, only god knows. Hyde is known as the murder capital of England, but it should be made clear the Brady, Hindley and Cregan where Manchester imports, and Shipman came from Nottingham. Ever since Hattersley was built its brought nothing only trouble to Hyde and its people.
|
|
|
|
Post by southampton on Sept 18, 2012 22:01:51 GMT -1
The two people Cregan killed in Droylsden were criminals like himself, the family had been involved in criminal activities in Higher Openshaw and Droylsden for quite sometime, so he did everyone a favour be eliminating them. because they were criminals it does not give Cregan or anyone else the right to kill them, you cannot have that, there are thousands of criminals in Manchester and all other towns and villages, but you just cannot allow them to go around killing one another because at sometime or other a innocent passer by will get hurt or killed in the cross fire, I suggest you read 'Gang War' the inside story of Manchester Gangs' by Peter Walsh which will make you aware of just how much fire power there is in criminal gangs in the greater Manchester area, you really do not want a free for all gun fight between them, yes it would rid the area of a good many low life people but too many innocent people would get hurt. |
|
|
|
Post by Lisa on Sept 19, 2012 5:34:27 GMT -1
.....Just like two innocent young PC's were killed yesterday. Once hatred enters your heart there's no knowing where it will end.  The two people Cregan killed in Droylsden were criminals like himself, the family had been involved in criminal activities in Higher Openshaw and Droylsden for quite sometime, so he did everyone a favour be eliminating them. because they were criminals it does not give Cregan or anyone else the right to kill them, you cannot have that, there are thousands of criminals in Manchester and all other towns and villages, but you just cannot allow them to go around killing one another because at sometime or other a innocent passer by will get hurt or killed in the cross fire, I suggest you read 'Gang War' the inside story of Manchester Gangs' by Peter Walsh which will make you aware of just how much fire power there is in criminal gangs in the greater Manchester area, you really do not want a free for all gun fight between them, yes it would rid the area of a good many low life people but too many innocent people would get hurt. |
|
|
|
Post by Lisa on Sept 19, 2012 5:44:38 GMT -1
Lord Longford didnt get his wish after all, did he? Fortunately, the people of Manchester never forgot what Brady & Hindley did and the families of those innocent victims made sure they stayed where they belonged - in jail. The Courts are filled with Judges who have no idea what goes on in the 'real world' and allows bail to criminals like Creegan. The do-gooders will always seek notoriety for themselves by trying to fool us into believing that these murderers are reformed characters. I, for one, never fell for the rantings of Lord Longford.....but there will always be someone who will.  I actually believe in the Death Penalty. Why should I have to pay to keep these people in luxury? is there any reason to keep people like Dale Cregan alive? he is wanted for two murders and has just added to that the murder of two police women in cold blood, he will not be seeing life outside prison again, he will get life and this will be a case when life will mean life not ten years, but I cannot understand the people who have been helping him over the last month or so when his face was first shown in the media, would you help feed and hide a guy like him knowning he was wanted for two murders?, the sad thing is in time there will be people in the same mode as lord longford who will say in a few years time the same as he did re Myra Hindley "cregan is a changed man and deserves to be let free" and there will be those sad people who will write to him because " he didnt mean to do it" etc etc. |
|
|
|
Post by southampton on Sept 19, 2012 10:19:05 GMT -1
one problem with the death penalty is there could be a time when in a murder case members of the jury might be 99% sure that the accused did the crime but they could be thinking "what if he/she did not do it and I wrongly help send him/her to the gallows?" so they might go instead for the 'not guilty' verdit and a guilty person then walks free,
one more problem with this case is Cregan will have nothing to lose in prison as the odds are he wll be in there for life so his friends might intimidate prison staff and their families outside the prison ( not a unknown problem) in order to make life a lot easier for Cregan behind bars.
|
|
|
|
Post by cicero on Sept 19, 2012 11:55:46 GMT -1
With DNA there can be no mistakes. The problem today is that virtually any couple can have children - drug addicts and alcoholic, once these breed the same vicious starts all over again. I am a firm believer in eugenics, where the scum of society is prevented from reproducing. Most criminal come from one parent families, from homes where there is acoholic or drug abuse.Prevention is the best form of cure.
|
|
|
|
Post by southampton on Sept 19, 2012 20:58:37 GMT -1
, where the scum of society is prevented from reproducing. yes but who decides who are 'scum' and who are not?, how many members of the House of Lords have a criminal record? hows about Lord Taylor, Lord Archer, or Lord Hanningfield( £28,000 expenses fraud for him) and the many members of the House of Lords who had been made bankrupt? and the many local MP's who were caught red handed in the expenses row of a few years back, because some one is born into a well off family it dont allways mean they will be 'good' people when they grow up! nor will being born into a 'scum' family mean you are going to be a waste of space when you grow up, yes there are scum bags living in so called 'sink' estates but there are also people living in the very up-market areas of places like Manchester who made their money via drug importing, money laundering, bent solicitors, illegal money lenders, bent so called Financial Advisers who have pocketed your money etc etc, they might be respected by the locals because of their wealth but they can do you more harm than a druggie from a low life estate, so is it allright for the bent solicitor who ripped you off for thousands to father a child rather than the druggie who nicked your £50 phone to father a child?, how do you decide?. |
|
|
|
Post by cicero on Sept 20, 2012 12:34:31 GMT -1
Very easy, medical records, criminal records, school records, there are many ways. The t4 unit didn't have any trouble.
|
|
|
|
Post by jonesg on Sept 21, 2012 23:11:44 GMT -1
Lord Longford didnt get his wish after all, did he? Fortunately, the people of Manchester never forgot what Brady & Hindley did and the families of those innocent victims made sure they stayed where they belonged - in jail. The Courts are filled with Judges who have no idea what goes on in the 'real world' and allows bail to criminals like Creegan. The do-gooders will always seek notoriety for themselves by trying to fool us into believing that these murderers are reformed characters. I, for one, never fell for the rantings of Lord Longford.....but there will always be someone who will. I actually believe in the Death Penalty. Why should I have to pay to keep these people in luxury? Yep, capitol punishment validates the sanctity of life, thats why they brought it back again in the USA. The bleeding heart argument against it was " the death penalty doesn't deter murderers". Well, theres a bunch of executed killers who cannot kill again, in that regard it works 100% perfectly well. I would have no trouble sleeping if I was the executioner and I accept that I might be wrongly executed myself if found guilty with erroneous evidence, I'd rather that than letting them live in jail. The problem they ran into in the US was liberal judges were actually letting the killers out, even if they were sentnced to life without possibility of parole, they just let them out on furlough, they merely invented new laws to let them out on weekend passes and of course....they murdered more innocents. In repsonse to murderers being rehabilitated, thats fine, God has the Power to turn a heart and I believe they can be rehabilitated, but it doesn't mean they should be released, they can stay in jail rehabilitated. The object is to punish, not repair and release. The next excuse the liberals try is " killers are sick", no they aren't sick, they are evil, theres a difference. But those who think they are God cannot accept the concept of evil, because the logic leads to the existence of Good and that implies God, these people cannot accept that, so they claim evil is just sick, and yet the mental institutions...full of very sick people, aren't full of killers. So their argument falls apart under its own weight. This is a debate England needs to have with itself and sort it out, the voices of the idiots need to be rebuked. |
|
|
|
Post by jackaitch on Sept 22, 2012 10:35:51 GMT -1
Well Spoken Jonesy...could not have been better expressed....
|
|
|
|
Post by southampton on Sept 23, 2012 16:27:45 GMT -1
Very easy, medical records, criminal records, school records, there are many ways. The t4 unit didn't have any trouble. so what would you be looking for in, for example, someones 'medical record'? Jonesy, you state In repsonse to murderers being rehabilitated, thats fine, God has the Power to turn a heartyes but there are people like me who do not believe in God, so how do you intend to win my vote on this issue?. |
|
|
|
Post by jonesg on Sept 24, 2012 0:38:00 GMT -1
Thats a straw man argument.
My beliefs cannot be used as a smokescreen, you are either a liberal or you aren't. Nice try. ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by southampton on Sept 24, 2012 9:12:23 GMT -1
if you look at my first post on this issue I stated "[ is there any reason to keep Dale Cregan alive?"
I am no liberal in this case, the problem with the death penalty is there is no way a mistake can be put right if the wrong person is hung, there was a case a few years back where the wrong guy was sent down for life for a murder of a 8 year old girl which he did not commit, (Polish guy from Rochdale) he was released after DNA proved that he did not do it and the right guy is now behind bars, the Polish guy died about 3 years after he got his rightfull freedom, my problem is ( not in this case with Cregan ) there could well be cases where if the death penalty was in force the jury could be scared of making a mistake like the above if a 'guilty' verdict was made and instead say 'not guilty' and so let a guilty person walk free, could you sleep at night if you found out that you had sent the wrong person to the gallows?.
as far as 'you are either liberal or you aren't' you can be liberal about some issues but not liberal about others, life is not always black and white.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lisa on Sept 25, 2012 10:15:51 GMT -1
Most criminals do NOT come from one-parent families. I dont know where you got your facts from. Its a fact of nature that as humans when we see so-called 'respectable' people, we tend to think of them as 'good and honest' people. We only have to look at the present House of Commons and House of Lords, full of public-schooled privileged 'respected' politicians to see how crooked and mendacious they are. I know a lot of people from sink-estates that havent had a privileged upbringing or education but they would no more think of stealing or lying. With DNA there can be no mistakes. The problem today is that virtually any couple can have children - drug addicts and alcoholic, once these breed the same vicious starts all over again. I am a firm believer in eugenics, where the scum of society is prevented from reproducing. Most criminal come from one parent families, from homes where there is acoholic or drug abuse.Prevention is the best form of cure.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lisa on Sept 25, 2012 10:23:33 GMT -1
With DNA and CCTV evidence now, it would be vitually impossible to send a man to his death if he were innocent. In a lot of the cold cases that have come to the Court of Appeal it has been proved that evidence was tampered with in order to get a conviction. In the case of Stefan Kishco(dont know the correct spealling) evidence was withheld in order to get a quick result. The poor man suffered in prison and he later died after release because of what he had endured having been separated from his mother. He had mental health problems and should never have been sent to prison. Nowadays, it can be more or less proved 100% that someone has committed a crime. Also a Judge can also ask for a unanimous verdict instead of a majority verdict, so as to be sure they proved a man guilty. I still believe in capital punishment given the facts of the above. one problem with the death penalty is there could be a time when in a murder case members of the jury might be 99% sure that the accused did the crime but they could be thinking "what if he/she did not do it and I wrongly help send him/her to the gallows?" so they might go instead for the 'not guilty' verdit and a guilty person then walks free, one more problem with this case is Cregan will have nothing to lose in prison as the odds are he wll be in there for life so his friends might intimidate prison staff and their families outside the prison ( not a unknown problem) in order to make life a lot easier for Cregan behind bars. |
|
|
|
Post by jonesg on Sept 28, 2012 2:09:49 GMT -1
if you look at my first post on this issue I stated "[ is there any reason to keep Dale Cregan alive?" I am no liberal in this case, the problem with the death penalty is there is no way a mistake can be put right if the wrong person is hung, there was a case a few years back where the wrong guy was sent down for life for a murder of a 8 year old girl which he did not commit, (Polish guy from Rochdale) he was released after DNA proved that he did not do it and the right guy is now behind bars, the Polish guy died about 3 years after he got his rightfull freedom, my problem is ( not in this case with Cregan ) there could well be cases where if the death penalty was in force the jury could be scared of making a mistake like the above if a 'guilty' verdict was made and instead say 'not guilty' and so let a guilty person walk free, could you sleep at night if you found out that you had sent the wrong person to the gallows?. as far as 'you are either liberal or you aren't' you can be liberal about some issues but not liberal about others, life is not always black and white. Morals are either right or wrong, there is no intelligent moral relativism. Yes I could sleep very well, I will volunteer to be the executioner and accept I could be the one wrongly hung too. Abandoning capitol punishment because there might be a mistake devalues the sanctity of life due to fear. Its not difficult to see where God isn't, moral relativism, fear based decisions that yield disastrous results. I've got news, in the end...you're gonna die. |
|
|
|
Post by southampton on Sept 28, 2012 21:14:40 GMT -1
[quote author=jonesg board=general thread
could you sleep at night if you found out that you had sent the wrong person to the gallows?.
.[/quote]
Yes I could sleep very well, I will volunteer to be the executioner and accept I could be the one wrongly hung too.
[/quote]
dont think there would be many people like you who could sleep well at night if it was found that they sent the wrong guy or gal to their death, I could not.
I have no problem with sending people like Cregan to the hangmans noose but I would also be happy (apart from the cost) to see him rot in jail, why? because this would mean his friends and family will have their lives made seriously disruptive due to making prison vists each month, the further away the jail is from Manchester the better!, and in time as happened to the Krays there will be new gang leaders taking over his 'patch' and he will be forgoten about expect from a decreasing number of people which means he will have more and more time on his own to reflect on the horror he was responsible for.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lisa on Sept 29, 2012 7:53:44 GMT -1
Personally, I dont think criminals like Creegan have a conscience nor will they ever reflect on the horrors of what they have done. The hatred for the Police and authority has been instilled into him from an early age and no amount of rehabilitation will help. I'd willingly hang someone but only if I knew 100% that they had committed the crime with all evidence before me. As humans, we are meant to be selective otherwise society would break down, which seems more and more to be happening in recent years. |
|
|
|
Post by jonesg on Sept 29, 2012 23:18:52 GMT -1
[dont think there would be many people like you who could sleep well at night if it was found that they sent the wrong guy or gal to their death, I could not. . There are a lot of people like me, I am not the judge or jury that convicts and sentences. If the jury got it wrong its on them, not the executioner or the sentencing judge. |
|
|
|
Post by southampton on Sept 30, 2012 19:13:07 GMT -1
[ If the jury got it wrong its on them, not the executioner or the sentencing judge. my point was (19th Sept) there could be a time when in a murder case members of the jury might be 99% sure that the accused did the crime but they could be thinking "what if he/she did not do it and I wrongly help send him/her to the gallows?"
never have I said that I was looking at things though the eyes of a judge or executioner, I was looking at it though the eyes of a jury member. |
|
|
|
Post by Lisa on Oct 1, 2012 5:25:42 GMT -1
That's why we have juries and why we have unanimous or majority verdicts. Judges will often direct a jury to stay in deliberation until they reach either verdict. A jury member in doubt should express those doubts during deliberation. If he keeps those doubts to himself, then its up to his guilt later if it proved that the perpetrator was innocent. Judges and the judiciary dont like majority verdicts because it can often result in taking a case to the Appeal Courts. [ If the jury got it wrong its on them, not the executioner or the sentencing judge. my point was (19th Sept) there could be a time when in a murder case members of the jury might be 99% sure that the accused did the crime but they could be thinking "what if he/she did not do it and I wrongly help send him/her to the gallows?"
never have I said that I was looking at things though the eyes of a judge or executioner, I was looking at it though the eyes of a jury member. |
|
|
|
Post by climb57 93/20 on Nov 21, 2012 18:26:36 GMT -1
its just a pity but the majority of the worst criminals in the annals of crime come from the north west , i dont know what it is but we seem to breed the worst of them ,
|
|
I actually believe in the Death Penalty. Why should I have to pay to keep these people in luxury?
